Winters Deposition, pp. 61-90
1       STATE OF ILLINOIS       )
                                )       SS:
2       COUNTY OF COOK          )

3       IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY
        COUNTY DEPARTMENT       LAW DIVISION
4
        JAMES WINTERS,                          )
5                                               )
                Plaintiff,                      )
6                                               )
        VS.                                     )       No. 82 L 14410
7                                               )
        ANDREW GREELEY,                         )
8                                               )
                Defendant.                      ) 
9

10              The discovery deposition of JAMES WINTERS, 

11      taken under oath on the 1st day of July, 1985, in 

12      Room 1200, at 111 West Jackson Boulevard, Chicago,

13      Illinois, pursuant to the Rules of the Supreme 

14      Court of Illinois and the Illinois Code of Civil 

15      Procedure, before Linda McMahon, a notary public 

16      in and for the County of Cook and State of Illinois,

17      pursuant to notice.

        APPEARANCES:
18
                WILLIAM D. MADDUX & ASSOCIATES, by
19                      MR. BRUCE M. LANE,
                                for the plaintiff,
20
                MAYER, BROWN & PLATT, by
21                      MR. PATRICK W. O'BRIEN and
                        MS. HOPE G. NIGHTINGALE,.
22                              for the Defendant.

23

24
                       Sullivan Reporting Company
                      Chicago, Illinois   782-4705
PART 3: PP. 61-90

1               A       I don't recall.  
2               Q       Did you talk with anybody else about your
3       forthcoming trip to interview Father Greeley in
4       Tucson, Arizona?
5               A       At what time?
6               Q       Prior to leaving.
7               A       I am sure I did.
8               Q       Do you recall any particular conversation?
9               A       No.
10              Q       In connection with your trip to Tucson, sir,
11      what, if any, documents did you review?
12              A       At what time?
13              Q       Prior to going.
14              A       I took out a copy of "The Best of Times and
15      the Worst of Times" from the library of Notre Dame
16      and I made a copy of an article that Father Greeley
17      wrote in a book called "Journeys." I may have made
18      other material. I may have produced other material,
19      but I don't recall what.
20              Q       In your discussion with Mr. Parent did you
21      discuss what kind of article you had in mind after
22      you interviewed Father Greeley?
23              A       After?
24              Q       In other words, before you went for the
                                                61

1       interview did your discussion with Parent include any
2       general discussion of the kind of article you had in
3       mind for the Notre Dame Magazine?
4               A       Yes.
5               Q       What was that discussion?
6               A       I told him I wanted to write a definitive
7       profile of Father Greeley that would cover the ball
8       park.
9               Q       What did Mr. Parent say?
10              A       "Fine."
11              Q       A definitive profile?
12              A       Yes.
13              Q       Did you have a discussion with Mr. Parent
14              About the length of the article?
15              A       No, sir.
16              Q       Now, following your letter of February 20,
17      1980 to Greeley and his written response, did you have
18      before arriving in Tucson any further discussion with
19      him on the phone?
20              A       Yes, sir.
21              Q       Approximately when was that, sir.
22              A       February or March of 1980.
23              Q       Did you call him, or did he call you?
24              A       I believe I initiated a contact.
                                                62

1               Q       And you got him out in Tucson, Arizona?
2               A       I believe so, yes.
3               Q       Can you give us the substance of what you
4       said and what he said?
5               A       I told him I would need more time to
6       interview him than the time he had set aside in this
7       note here, that I would prefer to have all week if I
8       could, and asked him if there was a good week in wchic
9       that could be possible, and we arranged for me to com
10      out on the 24th of March, 1980, and to stay through
11      the 29th of March or the 30th of March 1980.
12              Q       Now, sir, in this conversation did you
13      make it clear that you intended to take up four days
14      of steady -- you were going to interview Father
15      Greeley for four straight days, surely not?
16              A       I wanted -- I made it clear to him that
17      I wanted some time from him each day for interviews,
is      that I had a lot of interviewing in mind.
19              Q       Did you tell him how many hours per day?
20              A       No, sir.
21              Q       You were going to be out there during that
22      time and during that time Father Greeley was going
23      to be teaching?
24              A       He was going to be teaching one day on
                                                63

1               A       I don't believe so.
2               Q       Did you have any conversations -- further
3       conversations before you left with Mr. Ron Parent,
4       or anyone       else connected with the Notre Dame Magazine?
5               A       Not that I recall.
6               Q       Had you commenced to make notes from the
7       reading that you have described before you left for
8       Tucson?
9               A       No.
10              Q       Did you take with you -- when you went to
11      Tucson what, sir. did you take with you to aid you
12      in the  interview of Father Greeley?
13              A       I took with me this book by Monskonsi and
14      I took with me this article by -- no, the article
15      is by Greeley, edited by Greg Baum, called "Journeys."
16      It was an autobiographical piece.
17              Q       Sir, when did you arrive in Tucson; March
18      24?
19              A       March 24, 1980.
20              Q       About what time of day?
21              A       About in the afternoon.
22              Q       And did Father Greeley meet you?
23              A       No, sir.
24              Q       When did you first get together with
65

1       Father Greeley?
2               A       When did I first physically meet him?
3               Q       Yes.
4               A       About 6:30 that evening.
5               Q       6:30 on the evening of March 24, 1980?
6               A       That's right.
7               Q       Where did you meet him?
8               A       At a restaurant called El Chero in Tucson.
9               Q       And had that been arranged before your
10              Arrival?
11              A       He mentioned in here that there is a nice
12      Mexican restaurant, but I believe we arranged it on
13      the phone that  afternoon.
14              Q       Was Tuesday evening March 24?
15              A       Monday evening.
16              Q       So it is a day earlier than his reference
17      here, but in any event, you had a good Mexican dinner
18      with Greeley at the El Chero restaurant on the
19      evening of March 24, 1980?
20              A       That's right.
21              Q       And Greeley picked up the tab, or did you?
22              A       I did.
23              Q       That was a good lawful expense, was it not?
24              A       Yes.
                                                66

1               Q       How long did you spend with Father
2       Greeley on the evening of March 24, 1980?
3               A       Approximately three hours.
4               Q       Was all of the time spent at the El Chero
5       restaurant?
6               A       No, sir.
7               Q       About how long were you at the restaurant?
8               A       Two hours and forty-five minutes, maybe.
9       Maybe a little less than that.
10                              That is just an approximation.
11      Probably a little less than that.
12              Q       Did you tape record any of this conversation
13      at the El Chero restaurant?
14              A       No, sir.
15              Q       You said you spent about three hours with
16      him and you spent two hours and forty-five minutes
17      at the El Chero so that means he drove you somewhere?
18              A       He drove me back to my hotel.
19              Q       Now, sir. we have got a three-hour
20      conversation. No one else was present, I take it?
21              A       other than the waitresses and other
22      restaurant people.
23              Q       Now, on the subject of Greeley, apart from
24      exchanges on the weather Or Notre Dame's football
                                                67

1       team and Arizona's football team et cetera, would
2       you give us the
3       what happened the evening, the conversation between
4       yourself and Father Greeley?
5               A       Well, he said, "What is this all about?"
6       And I said, "Well, I want to write an article about
7       you for the magazine." And that was about it.
8               Q       He told you -- you used the word "profile,"
9       didn't you?
10              A       I believe I did on that occasion, also, an
11      article profile.
12              Q       Did you tell him how long the article you
13      had sort of floating in your mind was going to be?
14              A       I said at least 8,000 [possibly 6,000] words.
15              Q       And you mentioned clearly, did you not that
16      this was for the Notre Dame magazine?
17              A       Yes.
18              Q       Did Greeley have anything to may on the
19      subject-of Notre' Dame Magazine that you recall?
20              A       Yes, sir. He said it  was a -- he said . it
21      was the best Catholic publication we have. He said it
22      was very well done.
23              Q       Did be-say it-was the best Catholic
24      publication, or the best University Alumni
                                                68

1       publication?
2               A       Catholic.
3               Q       Therefore, from that comment, was the Notre
4       Dame Alumni Magazine is a better Catholic Magazine
5       than the Jesuits Magazine of America?
6               A       You could certainly infer that.
7               Q       Okay. And what else was said on the subject
8       of the Notre Dame Magazine?
9               A       He said it was a very fine journal.
10              Q       Did he say a very fine journal, or a very
11      fine alumni journal?
12              A       Journal.
13              Q       Would you describe the Notre Dame Magazine
14      as just a general Catholic journal?
15              A       It serves many functions.
16              Q       Isn't its primary function as an alumni
17      magazine?
18              A       That is one of the functions.
19              Q       What are some of the other primary
20      functions?
21              A       Well, we try to fulfill some of Notre
22      Dame's mission of service to the Roman Catholic
23      church by providing a journal of opinion and of
24      reporting about the church and about topics of
                                                69

1       interest to Catholics from a Catholic point of view
2       as best you can understand that. That is one thing
3       we do in addition to conventional university
4       publishing.
5               Q Notre Dame Magazine has book reviews,
6       does it not?
7               A It used to.
8               Q Did it in 1980 and 1979?
9               A Yes.
10              Q And did it review "The Making of the Popes
11      1978" by Andrew Greeley?
12              A       Yes.
13              Q       When did that review come out, if you
14      recall?
15              A       December 1979.
16              Q       Do you recall who wrote it?
17              A       A member of the faculty with a French name-.
18      First name, Jean.
19              Q       Was the -- if you recall -- the review
20      favorable, or unfavorable?
21              A       I believe it was mixed.
22              Q       Do you recall any notes in the review
23      about Cardinal Cody?
24              A       I don't.
                                                70

1               Q       That is to say in the article itself.
2               A       I don't.
3               Q       You don't recall. Did you discuss the
4       review of "The Making of the Popes 1978" with Greeley
5       on the occasion of your two hours and forty-five
6       minute conversation at the El Chero restaurant?
7               A       Actually it was in the car on the way home.
8 He said he did not like the review.
9               Q       What did you say?
10              A       I had no response.
11              Q       Do you recall what Greeley said about the
12      review of his book, "The Making of the Popes 1978"
13      other than the fact he did not like it?
14              A       Yes. He said he didn't understand why a
15      theologian had been assigned to it, or he made some
16      objection About the assignment.
17              Q       And you had not read "The Making of the
18      Popes" at this time, had you?
19              A       No, I had not.
20              Q       Did you have any discussion involving
21      Monsignor Egan with Father Greeley on the evening of
22      March 24; did his name come up?
23              A       Yes, his name did come up. He was giving
24      me a list of sources and Monsignor Egan was among them
                                                71

1               Q       A list of sources, people to talk about him,
2       Greeley?
3               A       That's right.
4               Q       Did he expand on this as to why you should
5       see Monsignor Egan?
6               A       I don't recall.
7               Q       On the subject matter of Greeley suggesting
8       to you sources of information about him, Greeley, who
9       else besides Monsignor Egan that Father Greeley made
10      mention of?
11              A       Archbishop Bernardin, Cardinal Cody, Nancy
12      McCreaddy [sic], Bill McCreaddy [sic], Andy Bird, Mary Bird,
13      a man named Saletta. That is his wife.
14              Q       Whose wife?
15              A       This person named Saletta, I forgot his
16      first name.
17                              His sister, Mary Jo Durkin, Jim
18      Andrews, Father Hesburgh.
19                      It was a long list. There may have
20      been others. I am sure there were others. I can tell
21      you a few more. Charles Shamabrook, John Shea.
22                              I will keep trying.
23              Q       Was this list given to you while you were at
24      dinner, or in the car driving home?
                                                72

1               A       At dinner.
2               Q       Do you recall anything else other than what
3       You have        testified to, brought up at that dinner?
4               A       Yes.
5               Q       Would you tell us what it is, sir?
6               A       As soon as I said what I was doing, he said,
7       "Can    I see the quotes?"
8               Q       What did that mean to you, sir?
9               A       I took it to mean, can I see the quotations
10      that I would be using in my article before they were
11      published.
12              Q       His, or others, or whose, or all?
13              A       That was not clear.
14              Q       What did you say in response, if anything?
15              A       I said I cannot do that.
16              Q       And what did Father Greeley say?
17              A       He said, "It is not that I don't trust you,
18      but, you see, I have been burned before."
19              Q       And by that you understood him to mean
20      burned by Notre Dame, or some of its representatives,
21      or burned in general by somebody, or what?
22              A       I believe he specifically mentioned burned
23      by Not re Dame before.
24              Q       Now, based upon your journalistic experience,
                                                73

1       sir, when somebody is quoted directly in an article,
2       how do you make sure that where you put quotation
3       marks around something said, that you have got it
4       right?
5               A       If you have it on tape, you don't have any
6       Problem with that.
7               Q       And did you mention the subject of taping
8       with Father Greeley that evening?
9               A       No, I don't recall doing that, no.
10              Q       Is it your practice when interviewing
11      somebody either to have a tape of what the person
12      said, or to verify the quote with the person being
13      quoted?
14                              That is two questions.
15              A       Yes,    it is.
16              Q       Apart from the tape recorder as you have
17      described, sir, do you have a practice with respect
18      to quoting somebody in an article and you don't
19      have a tape to verify the exact words?
20              A       If I interview a person and I do not tape
21      them?
22              Q       Yes,    sir,
23              A       Do I call them and verify the quote?
24              Q       Yes,    sir,
                                                74


1               A       No, sir.
2               Q       You rely on your notes?
3               A       No, sir.
4               Q       You take shorthand?
5               A       No, sir.
6               Q       Speedwriting?
7               A       No, sir. I write fast.
8               Q       Okay. Is there any practice in connection
9       with profiles in the Notre Dame Magazine about
10              Quoting the subject of a profile; the interview
11              Quote, is there a guideline, or any kind of practice
12      that the Magazine employs?
13              A       I don't know what you are getting at.
14      No, would be the simplest answer to that.
15              Q       Now, sir. did you take notes during this
16      meeting at the El Chero restaurant and in the car
17              Afterwards?
18              A       I wrote down all the names that he gave me

19      to talk to further for this profile and I also wrote
20      down one or two things that he particularly wanted
21      me to write down that he was saying that night.
22              Q       Such as, sir.
23              A       well, he had a definition of his status
24      within the Archdiocese which he kind of said, and it
                                                75

1       was a fairly elaborate definition which employed
2       Latin, and he said you can use that if you want and
3       So I wrote it down.
4               Q       Was this in connection with his standing
5       within the Chicago Archdiocese?
6               A       Yes.
7               Q       I mean was he, as you understood it, trying
8       to make clear to you that he was a priest in good
9       standing with the Archdiocese of Chicago?
10              A       That was already clear.
11              Q       Did you write that down?
12              A       I think I did, yeah.
13              Q       That is one item. What other items?
14              A       There may have been one or two others, but
15      I was not taking notes throughout the conversation.
16              Q       Did you preserve those notes?
17              A       I believe so.
18              Q       Where are they now, if you know?
19              A       They would be at my attorney's.
20              Q       The notes of that night?
21              A       The notes from that night would have been on
22      a rough sheet of paper. They would not have been
23      anything formal.
24              Q       Did you turn them over to your attorney?
76

1               A       As I recall, I kept any piece of paper that
2       I took notes on in the course of putting together
3       this article and all those notes I turned over to the
4       attorneys.
5               Q       How many pages were the notes you took. that
6       night?
7               A       Including the names, ten little sheets.
8       I remember now I was writing.
9               Q       Like a little notebook like this?
10              A       Yes.
11              Q       Four inches by two and a half?
12              A       That's: right
13              Q       And you slipped out this little notebook and
14      started writing?
15              A       That's right.
16              Q       In any event, you preserved those notes of
17      that evening and you did turn them over to your
18      attorney?
19              A       Yes.
20              Q       And the one thing that would characterize
21      those notes taken that night -- it is informal -
22      but it does include a list of names?
23              A       I could identify them to the best of my
24      knowledge, yes.
                                                77


1               MR. O'BRIEN:  I note for the record that we have
2       not had any such document or documents produced to us
3       and I do believe they were covered in our request
4       to produce.
5               MR. LANE:       We indicate that we produced
6       everything covered in your request for production.
7               MR. O'BRIEN:  Q  Sir, now, we have covered
8       events of the 24th.  Do you recall anything else that
9       occurred that night before we leave it?
10              A       No, sir.
11                              I  remember random things like my
12      luggage was lost and things like that.
13              MR. LANE: Before we move on to another date how
14      about a two-minute recess.
15                                              Whereupon, a short
16                                              recess was taken.)
17              MR. O'BRIEN: Q Mr. Winters, how often does the
18      Notre Dame Magazine come out per year?
19              A       Nowadays it comes out four times a year.
20              Q       That is to say corresponding with the
21      seasons as in winter, spring, summer, and fall?
22              A       That's right.
23              Q       And how long has that been going on?
24              A       That is just this year.
                                                78

1               Q       By "this year" you mean 1985?
2               A       That's right.
3               Q       I am looking at the issue of the Notre
4       Dame    Magazine labeled "Summer 1984."
5               A       We changed the names last year.
6               Q       So in 1984 what was the actual number of
7       volumes or issues published per year?
8               A       We go by volume rather than year.
9       The volumes roughly correspond with the year, but
10      since we are changing the frequency, that is not
11      exactly correct.
12                              The last couple of years in 19 --
13      between 1974 and 1984 the Magazine was published five
14      times a year.
15              Q       And how did you label each, just by number,
16      or give them a season?
17              A       For the most part in those years we gave
18      them a month.
19              Q       All right. So you switched from five per
20      year to four per year?
21              A       That's right.
22              Q       And the switch to four to year is effective

23      for the first time in 1985, is that correct?
24              A       That's right.
                                                79

1               Q       Was there any discussion at El Chero
2       restaurant on the subject matter of where, if anywhere,
3       Greeley's notes, articles, books, manuscripts were
4       maintained and kept?
5               A       No, sir.
6               Q       You did not bring the subject up and he did
7       not bring the subject up?
8               A       That's correct.
9               Q       Did you ask him any questions about
10      "The making of the Popes 1978"?
11              A       No, sir.
12              Q       Did you seek verification of anything about
13      Greeley found in the book and the materials that you
14      previously described that you had with you on the trip
15      to Tucson?
16              A       No, sir.
17              Q       Did you ask him any questions that night
18              About his dates of graduation from here and there and
19      degrees; did that subject come up?
20              A       No, sir.
21              Q       Did his relationship with Cardinal Meyer
22      come up; how he ended up at the University of
23      Chicago, et cetera?
24              A       This was not an interview. He may have
                                                80

1       brought it up in passing. occasionally he would say
2       things and get that down because he thought I might
3       want to use it, but it wasn't off the record, so
4       I suppose everything he said was usable, but it was
5       not an interview. I wasn't there to ask him a lot
6       of questions about his background.
7               Q       Did you discuss the Universal Press
8       Syndicate with him, his publisher, or people he deals
9       with?
10              A       Yes.
11              Q       How did that come up?
12              A       He asked me if they had tried to hire me.
13              Q       In what connection?
14              A       I don't know.
15              Q       And you said no?
16              A       "No."
17              Q       And did the names of any reporters come up
18      in that conversation that night?
19              A       Not to my recollection.
20              Q       Did the subject matter of any events
21      whatsoever occurring within the Archdiocese of
22      Chicago come up that night?
23              A       Given any time frame?
24              Q       Yes.
                                                81

1               A       Yes. I remember how he began the
2       conversation. He talked about Cardinal Mundelein.
3               Q       What did he say about Cardinal Mundelein?
4               A       He said he may have been a homosexual and
5       he may have been murdered.
6               Q       Did any other Cardinals come up for
7       discussion that night?
8               A       I believe Cardinal Cody was discussed.
9               Q       Did you ask any questions about Cardinal
10      Cody? What I am trying to get is if I can hear
11      everything that was said and just the substance of
12      this occasion. That is the point of this exercise.
13              A       I am trying to give that.
14              Q       Okay. So the subject matter of Cardinal
15      Cody came up that night at the El Chero?
16              A       Well, I recall that Cardinal Cody came up
17      because he told me I might want to see Cody, but
18      didn't think he would want to see me about Greeley.
19      That was one reference to Cardinal Cody.
20              Q       Did you ask -- were there any other
21      references that you recall?
22              A       Not that I recall, no.
23              Q       Did you discuss what works, if any, Greeley
24      had in progress, writings, that is, that night?
                                                82

1               A       He may have brought up a study he was doing
2       on young Catholics. I am not sure he did that night.
3       He did early in our meetings.
4                               Actually I am sure he did now that I
5       recollect. He discussed that.
6               Q       And was that a sociological kind of study?
7               A       It was a study for the Knights of Columbus.
8       I believe it was a sociological study about the
9       attitudes of young Roman Catholics.
10              Q       Did he discuss, or did the two of you
11      discuss anything pertaining to the National Opinion
12      Research Center?
13              A       Not to my recollection, although he did
14      direct me to see Mr. McCreaddy [sic], who was associated
15      with that.
16              Q       Did the subject matter of the Church
17      International come up; that is, to say how to elect
18      Popes, that sort of thing?
19              A       Not to my recollection.
20              Q       Did the subject of Father Hesburgh come up
21      in any  way whatsoever?
22              A       Yes. He gave me his name again as someone
23      I might use as a source. He calls him Ted.
24      Q       What do you call him?
                                                83

1               A       Father Hesburgh.
2               Q       And Father Hesburgh, for the record, was
3       then and had been for some years President of Notre
4       Dame, or perhaps was he still President, or had he
5       stepped down?
6               A       He was President then and still is.
7               Q       Didn't they have an attempt to get the
8       laity more involved?
9               A       There is now a lay board of trustees, a
10      lay-dominated board of trustees.
11              Q       Now, his report -- if you would mark
12      this document, which appears to be a Xerox copy of
13      "Summer 1984" issue, at least portions of the
14      Notre Dame magazine as Winters' Exhibit No. 1,
15      please.
16                              (Whereupon, Winters'
17                              Exhibit No. 1 was marked
18                              for identification as of
19                              this date.)
20      MR. O'BRIEN: Q  Now, sir, I show you the
21      document previously described, marked Winters'
22      Exhibit No. 1, and you recall that, do you not, as
23      a Xerox copy of the front page of the Notre Dame
24      Magazine and the index and an article on "And Young
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1       Shall See Visions," on Andrew Young.
2                               You remember that issue, do you not?
3               A       Yes.
4               Q       Now, is this article about Andrew Young a
5       typical -- and I don't mean to suggest anything --
6       that that is a profile, is it not, of Andrew Young?
7               A       It is a profile of Andrew Young.
8               Q       Okay.
9               A       I suppose, yes, I would agree with that.
10              Q       Okay. Did any particular future plans
11      of Father Greeley come up for discussion that night
12      at the El Chero restaurant, such as the writing of
13      fiction novels?
14              A       I think he did mention that, yeah.
15              Q       What did he say, if you recall?
16              A       I think he said he had switched to writing
17      fiction lately and he was finding it fun.
18              Q       Did he discuss the nature of any of the
19      current fiction that he had underway?
20              A       I don't know that he did that night.
21              Q       Did he discuss any of his work and trips
22      to Rome in connection with his book, "The Making of
23      the Popes 1978"?
24              A       No.
                                                85

1               Q       All right. Sir, we now turn to March 25,
2       1980.
3               Did     you get together with Greeley on
4       March 25,       1980?
5               A       I did.
6               Q       About what time?
7               A       About 9:30 in the morning as I recall.
8       Maybe earlier.
9               Q       Where did you meet with him?
10              A       In his office.
11              Q       At the University?
12              A       That's correct.
13              Q       Just the two of you?
14              A       That's correct.
15              Q       And it is now interview time, is it not,
16      between yourself and Greeley?
17              A       We began our formal interviews which were
18      tape recorded.
19              Q       Now, how long did you spend with Greeley on
20      March 25,       1980?
21              A       Just about the whole day. I started in the
22      early morning and I was with him until the late
23      afternoon.
24              Q       You said "early morning," you mean 9:30?
                                                86

1               A       Well, it may have been earlier than 9:30.
2       actually I think it may have been 8:00 o'clock in the
3       morning, but in any event it was the first thing in
4       the morning.
5               Q       How long were you with him?
6               A       All day until about 4:30 in the afternoon,
7       maybe 5:00.
8               Q       Did you have a lunch with him?
9               A       Yes.
10              Q       Where was lunch?
11              A       Some outdoor place in Tucson.
12              Q       Who paid for it?
13              A       I did.
14              Q       Did you stay in the office during this
15      period -- except for your lunch break were you in
16      Greeley's office the whole time?
17              A       No.
18              Q       First describe for me for the record
19      physically where you spent those hours with
20      Andrew Greeley?
21              A       I spent them in his office.
22              Q       About how long?
23              A       A substantial amount of time in the
24      morning and a substantial amount of time in the evening
                                                87

1               And by that I mean more than an hour.
2               Q       By "evening," you mean afternoon?
3               A       Afternoon, I'm sorry.
4               Q       So what are we talking about total hours
5       spent at the University of Tucson?
6               A       Four, something like that.
7               Q       When did you first disclose, assuming you
8       did, and I assume you did, to Andrew Greeley that
9       you were going to tape record the interview sessions?
10              A       I certainly did that morning.
11                              I asked him if he would mind being
12      tape recorded and he said no.
13              Q       Was there any discussion before the
14      interviews began -- any further discussion on the
15      subject of reviewing either the quotes attributed to
16      Greeley in anything you might write?
17              A       No, sir.
18              Q       Was your tape recorder right on a desk?
19              A       Yes, sir.
20              Q       And about how long does each tape in your
21      particular tape recorder work?
22              A       It would depend on the tape.
23              Q       Well, what were your using, if you recall?
24              A       I don't recall, but they would go half an
                                                88

1       hour, forty-five minutes, an hour, depending.
2               Q       Would you change the tapes, or just turn
3       them    over?
4               A       You would turn them over initially and then
5       change them when it ran out on both sides.
6               Q       So was it half-hour a side?
7               A       I don't recall specifically in this
8       interview.
9               Q       Can you describe the kind of machine you
10      were    using? They come in different sizes, different
11      size    tapes?
12              A       It was standard type.
13              Q       Well, I have seen little ones and I have
14      seen big ones. What kind of a machine is this?
15              A       It was a big, wide one.
16              Q       Now, sir, could you describe the course
17      of the morning, what were the subjects you were
18      interviewing Father Greeley about?
19              A       Essentially I was taking these interviews
20      in an obvious chronological order so I began with
21      his childhood and his father and his mother and his
22      family and his early experiences and his seminary
23      training and so forth.
24              Q       About how far did you get in the morning?
                                                89

1               A       In the morning we covered most of that
2       material which I have just said to you.
3               Q       The youth and education and early training
4       of Father       Greeley?
5               A       Yes.
6               Q       Did you get him through the University of
7       Chicago?
8               A       We were getting there in the morning,, yeah.
9               Q       Was anything sticking out of matters of
10      particular interest or controversy in connection with
11      the morning session?
12              A       No.
13              Q       And then you went to lunch. Was anyone
14      else with you at lunch other than yourself and
15      Greeley?
16              A       No.
17              Q       After lunch you went back to his office?
is              A       Yes, sir.
19              Q       And you were there the rest of the
20              afternoon until 4:30, 5:00 o'clock?
21              A       No. We went to a class. No, I'm sorry,
22      yeah, we went to a class. We went to two classes that
23      day. One was a seminar and that was in the morning.
24              Q       So the morning was interrupted with a
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Electronic edition copyright © 1998 Ingrid H. Shafer
Posted 21 August 1998