Winters Deposition, pp. 181-225
1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS: 2 COUNTY OF COOK ) 3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY COUNTY DEPARTMENT LAW DIVISION 4 JAMES WINTERS, ) 5 ) Plaintiff, ) 6 ) VS. ) No. 82 L 14410 7 ) ANDREW GREELEY, ) 8 ) Defendant. ) 9 10 The discovery deposition of JAMES WINTERS, 11 taken under oath on the 1st day of July, 1985, in 12 Room 1200, at 111 West Jackson Boulevard, Chicago, 13 Illinois, pursuant to the Rules of the Supreme 14 Court of Illinois and the Illinois Code of Civil 15 Procedure, before Linda McMahon, a notary public 16 in and for the County of Cook and State of Illinois, 17 pursuant to notice. APPEARANCES: 18 WILLIAM D. MADDUX & ASSOCIATES, by 19 MR. BRUCE M. LANE, for the plaintiff, 20 MAYER, BROWN & PLATT, by 21 MR. PATRICK W. O'BRIEN and MS. HOPE G. NIGHTINGALE,. 22 for the Defendant. 23 24 Sullivan Reporting Company Chicago, Illinois 782-4705
PART 7: PP. 181-225 1 A No. 2 Q You did not tell him, of course. We have 3 been through that. 4 A He didn't tell me to return them. 5 Q But he didn't know you made the copies? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q You didn't tell him? 8 A I didn't tell him. That doesn't mean he 9 didn't know. 10 Q You did not tell him? 11 A I did not. 12 Q Did he indicate by anything he said that 13 you did have copies of any of this top secret and 14 confidential material? 15 MR. LANE: I would object to the phraseology of 16 "top secret and confidential." 17 MR. O'BRIEN: He already admitted that he had 18 stuff that was so labeled. 19 MR. LANE: He said there was a label on it. 20 It doesn't indicate it was top secret and confidential 21 material. 22 MR. O'BRIEN: Q You have heard your Counsel's 23 objection? 24 A Would you repeat it? 181 1 (Question read by reporter.) 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 MR. O'BRIEN: Q Now, sir, he asked you, did he 4 not, in his letter of July 29 in paragraph No. 4, 5 "You ought not to spread copies of these documents 6 to others. To the extent that you do so, you will 7 become fully responsible." 8 Did that subject come up on the 9 telephone conversation? 10 A Not to my recollection, no. 11 Q Now, we have covered Hesburgh August 4th. 12 MR. LANE: Can we take a couple-minute break 13 here so it is 3:35? 14 (Whereupon, a brief 15 recess was taken.) 16 MR. O'BRIEN: Q Now, sir, following the letter 17 of July 29, Exhibit 6B, Greeley Deposition, sir, 18 did you write a letter, or anyone else to your 19 knowledge connected with the Notre Dame Magazine, 20 did you write a letter to Father Greeley? 21 A I did. 22 Q I am again showing you Plaintiff's No. 6B, 23 Greeley Deposition, the letter to you of July 29, 24 1980. You received that on or about the date it bears, 182 1 did you not? 2 A I received it August 1, 1980. 3 Q And then you prepared a letter, did you not, 4 to Father Greeley dated August 4, 1980, and I show 5 you a copy of the Notre Dame Magazine letterhead, 6 dated August 4, 1980, previously identified in 7 Father Greeley's deposition as Plaintiff's No. 7, 8 and I show you, sir, Plaintiff's No. 7, Greeley 9 Deposition, and ask you if that is not a letter you 10 sent to Father Greeley on or about August 4, 1980? 11 A It is. 12 Q Now, sir, directing your attention to the 13 last paragraph of Greeley Deposition No. 7, which 14 reads, "The First Amendment, as interpreted by the 15 Federal Courts, affords substantial protection to that 16 aspect of news gathering which involves obtaining 17 files and documents. The material I have gathered is in preparation for this article falls under that 19 protection." 20 Now, was that paragraph written by 21 you; was it drafted by you first? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Apart from the contact that you previously 24 described you had made with your brother, the lawyer, 183 1 had you talked -- prior to the time you wrote and 2 sent Greeley Deposition No. 7, sir, had you talked 3 to any other lawyer on the subject of your First 4 Amendment rights in Greeley's property? 5 A No. 6 Q Now, sir, your meeting with Father 7 Hesburgh was also on August 4, the date of this 8 letter, was it not? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you write the letter before or after 11 you had talked with Father Hesburgh? 12 A I wrote the letter on August 1. 13 Q Did you send it before, or after you 14 talked with Father Hesburgh? 15 A I don't recall exactly when I sent it. 16 Q Now, we have discussed your discussion 17 with Ron Parent. we have discussed your discussion 18 with Father Hesburgh. 19 Now, sir, in your interrogatories you 20 indicate that you had a discussion on July 16, 1980 21 with Roy Larsen of the Chicago Sun-Times? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And was that the first -- was that the 24 only conversation on the subject matter you had 184 1 with Larsen, or did you have other conversations? 2 A That was the only one I had other than 3 the conversation I had to set up that meeting. 4 Q With Roy Larsen? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Was anybody else present when you met with 7 Roy Larsen on July 16, 1980? 8 A It was in a restaurant, so there were 9 patrons present. 10 Q But no one else in your party? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q And this was at your invitation? 13 A Yes. 14 Q All right. Sir, what did you tell Mr. 15 Larsen when you called him to arrange for the 16 luncheon? 17 A I told him I was writing an article for the 18 Magazine about Father Greeley and I would like to 19 talk to him about it. 20 Q Then you suggested to meet for lunch, is 21 that correct? 22 A I think he actually suggested the lunch 23 part of it. 24 Q Where was the lunch? 185 1 A Corona Cafe. 2 Q And who paid for the lunch? 3 A I did. 4 Q And how long -- did the conversation you 5 had on July 16 occur at lunch at the Corona Cafe? 6 A We talked at the Corona Cafe and we walked 7 from the Cafe to the Sun-Times building and talked 8 in that time. 9 Q How long, including the walks to and from 10 the Corona Cafe, did this encounter with Roy Larsen 11 last? 12 A About two hours. 13 Q Did you show him any of the Greeley materials 14 in the course of this two-hour meeting? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you describe the Greeley materials to 17 him? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Give us the substance of what you said and 20 what Mr. Larsen said on your meeting at the Corona 21 Café on July 16, 1980? 22 A Well, basically I wanted to talk to him 23 about Father Greeley because he had known him for a 24 long time. 186 1 Monsignor Egan had suggested that I 2 talk to Roy Larsen about him. 3 And we discussed Father Greeley as a 4 source to some extent. He said he had been a source 5 to him. He said that. 6 Q Roy Larsen said that Greeley was his -- one 7 of Larsen's sources? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Did he put any confidentiality boundaries 10 on this identification of his sources? 11 A He did not want to be identified in the 12 article as a Chicago reporter, or anything like that. 13 He wanted to be identified in some neutral term, 14 which I guess was of my choice. 15 Q In other words, Roy did not want to reveal- 16 Roy Larsen did not want your article to reveal his, 17 Roy Larsen's, sources? 18 A In this particular instance that was the 19 guidelines for the conversation. 20 Q And that is not unusual for reporters to 21 protect their sources, is it? 22 A No, it is not. 23 Q And to the extent that you have sources you 24 consider them valuable and confidential, don't you, 187 1 sir? 2 A Sir, I come into contact with lots of people 3 who tell me things and under various guidelines which 4 we agree to right then and there between the two of 5 us and I honor my commitments to them. 6 Q You find it unusual for a journalist to 7 want his sources to be kept secret? 8 A Many times journalists publish their 9 sources in their articles. They say so and so said. 10 Q That is the journalist giving away his own 11 sources? 12 A That's right. 13 Q But do you find it unusual as a journalist 14 unless someone chooses to give them away that, if I 15 was a reporter, wouldn't you expect me unless I 16 divulged them of my own free will, to want to keep 17 my sources secret? 18 A It would depend on what arrangement you 19 had with the sources. 20 Q If I had an arrangement with my sources 21 to keep them secret, I would want to keep them secret? 22 A I suppose. 23 Q And didn't Roy let you know that he did 24 not. want to be named by name in the article that you 188 1 were going to write? 2 A He did not want to be quoted by the name 3 in the article. He did not object to be named. 4 Q And didn't he make it clear to you to the 5 extent he told you in the course of this luncheon 6 meeting of his sources, he did not want his sources 7 to be revealed by you? 8 A He didn't mention that. He mentioned that 9 Greeley was a source. He did not say, but don't tell 10 anybody. The guidelines for the conversation with 11 regard to the article had been set. I asked him, 12 a number of questions. That was one of them. 13 Q Was there anything about the conversation 14 with Ray Larsen that inhibited you from writing the 15 article that Roy Larsen is one of his sources for his 16 religious newswriting Andrew Greeley? 17 A I couldn't quote him by name to that 18 effect. 19 Q You understood that, didn't you? 20 MR. LANE: Who is the "him" you are referring 21 to? 22 THE WITNESS: I couldn't quote Larsen by name. 23 I could use the information that he had given me 24 under the guidelines that I had. I couldn't say 189 1 Larsen said that in an article, in the article that 2 we are talking about. 3 I was not to quote Larsen and then say 4 Larsen said this. I could quote him, but I couldn't 5 say Larsen said this. 6 Q You could enter a quote in your article, but 7 you couldn't attribute the quote to Roy Larsen, is 8 that correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 I could use the information he gave 11 me, too, in the article. 12 Q Was it clear you were not to use his name 13 in the article, the name of Roy Larsen? 14 A No, sir. I could go on and on about Roy 15 Larsen under the agreement that I had with Roy Larsen. 16 Q Let's get back to the subject matter, what 17 you said and what did Larsen say? 18 A Larsen said that Greeley had been a source 19 to him and he said that Greeley was an Irish 20 politician. He said he used reporters to achieve his 21 ends, and one of his ends was the removal of Cody. 22 He said, "He wouldn't deny that, would he," that 23 is one of the things he said. 24 He talked about Greeley's situation at 190 1 Larsen said that in an article, in the article that 2 we are talking about. 3 I was not to quote Larsen and then say 4 Larsen said this. I could quote him, but I couldn't 5 say Larsen said this. 6 Q You could enter a quote in your article, but 7 you couldn't attribute the quote to Roy Larsen, is 8 that correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 I could use the information he gave 11 me, too, in the article. 12 Q Was it clear you were not to use his name 13 in the article, the name of Roy Larsen? 14 A No, sir. I could go on and on about Roy 15 Larsen under the agreement that I had with Roy Larsen. 16 Q Let's get back to the subject matter, what 17 you said and what did Larsen say? 18 A Larsen said that Greeley had been a source 19 to him and he said that Greeley was an Irish 20 politician. He said he used reporters to achieve his 21 ends, and one of his ends was the removal of Cody. 22 He said, "He wouldn't deny that, would he," that 23 is one of the things he said. 24 He talked about Greeley's situation at 190 1 the University of Chicago in the early '70s. 2 Q What did he say in substance? 3 A He said he had done some work on that and 4 he said that they really didn't want him around, as 5 he saw it, because he went around shooting his mouth 6 off a lot at all kinds of subjects and the U of C is 7 not that kind of place. 8 Q The U of C Professor Group is noted for 9 their reticence in discussing public matters, matters 10 of public interest? 11 A That is what he said. What I said is what 12 he said. You said is an interpretation of what he 13 said. 14 Q What else did Larsen say? 15 A We discussed Archbishop Bernardin. He 16 characterized him as a company man, but more 17 imaginative than most, who would be good in Chicago. 18 Q Did you discuss the comments made in his 19 book, "The Making of the Popes 1978," by Greeley 20 about Joseph Bernardin, Archbishop of Cincinnati? 21 A No. 22 Q You recall Father Greeley was very full of 23 praise in his book, "The Making of the Popes 1978," 24 for Archbishop Bernardin of Cincinnati, was he not? 191 1 A I don't recall the specific reference, but 2 that doesn't surprise me. 3 Q All right. What else did Larsen say? 4 A I don't recall. 5 Q Did you show Larsen any of the materials 6 of Greeley that you had copied at the Rosary library? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you tell him about that material? 9 A Yes. 10 Q What did you say to him? 11 A As I recall, I told him that Father Greeley 12 had been involved in what he characterized himself as 13 a conspiracy to rig the Papal elections; that his 14 purpose was to get a liberal Pope; that this went on 15 for several years; that by 1977 he realized he didn't 16 have a contact with the Cardinal in the College of 17 Cardinals, and he decided at that point he needed to 18 get one, and the person he wanted to get was 19 Archbishop Bernardin of Cincinnati. 20 The way he wanted to get that was by 21 sponsoring an investigative reporter to do an expose 22 of Cardinal Cody, which he thought would affect his 23 removal of Chicago, and he thought that that would 24 lead to Archbishop Bernardin's appointment to 192 1 Chicago, which would eventually lead to Archbishop 2 Bernardin into the College of Cardinals, and then he 3 would have a person in the College of Cardinals. 4 Q What did Roy Larsen say to that? 5 A He said, "That is explosive; that is hard 6 news; I would want to write about your story when it 7 comes out." 8 Q Did he say anything about any investigation 9 being undertaken at that time by the Sun-Times? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q Did you have any discussion with Larsen 12 on the subject of whether any investigative reporter 13 or team of same were then investigating Cardinal 14 Cody? 15 A We discussed the Gannett investigation. 16 Q So the two of you knew about the Gannett 17 investigation of Cardinal Cody? 18 A That's right. That was happening 19 Q And what did Roy Larsen say about that? 20 A I asked him what he thought about it, and 21 he said, "The Gannett investigation cannot be 22 dismissed. I would not put him above that kind of 23 corruption." 24 Q Who is "him"? 193 1 A Cardinal Cody. 2 Q And did you discuss with Larsen the names 3 of any Gannett reporters that were doing this digging 4 into Cardinal Cody's situation? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Did you know any names at the time? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Have you learned any names that you think 9 were involved in it since? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q Who? 12 A Carlton Sherwood, who was the principal 13 reporter working for Gannett. 14 Q Did you and Larsen discuss the kind of 15 things that an investigation of Cody might reveal? 16 A Yes. 17 Q I am trying to get what was said then and 18 what did you and Larsen discuss on that subject? 19 A I understand. Did we discuss it? 20 Yes. We discussed -- I believe the question I asked 21 him was something like, "I understand that Gannett is 22 investigating this story that Cardinal Cody has 23 shoveled a lot of money through a woman over the 24 years. What do you think of that?" 194 1 Q And what did Roy Larsen think of it, at 2 least by what he said? 3 A Well, I have already testified that he said 4 that the Gannett investigation - 5 Q The Gannett investigation is hard stuff, 6 hard core good, solid front page material, if they 7 got the data? 8 A He said, "The Gannett investigation cannot 9 be dismissed. I would not put him above that kind of 10 corruption." That is what he said. 11 Q Anything else about any other aspect of 12 the then Gannett investigation? 13 A Not to my recollection. 14 Q Now, sir, this Larsen conversation, did you 15 transcribe that? 16 A Did I tape it, you mean? 17 Q Yes. 18 A No, sir. 19 Q You just took notes of it? 20 A I did. 21 Q Did you write up your notes? 22 A I took notes while I was there and then 23 I kind of expanded on them, filled in the blanks. 24 Q But you typed up something? 195 1 A I wrote them in longhand. 2 Q Did you turn those longhand notes in 3 connection with the Larsen conversation over to your 4 lawyers? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 MR. O'BRIEN: Note for the record we have not 7 gotten them and we should have gotten them a long 8 time ago. 9 Q Did you discuss with Roy Larsen the 10 possibility of any Chicago newspapers investigating 11 Cardinal Cody? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q That subject did not come up at all? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q How did you learn that this Carlton 16 Sherwood of the Gannett Press was investigating 17 Cardinal Cody at the time, that is to say, July of 18 1980? 19 A How did I know that Sherwood was investi 20 gating him? 21 The first person that mentioned it to 22 me was Greeley. 23 Q When did Greeley mention that to you? 24 A March 25, 1980. 196 1 Q You didn't mention that when I was asking 2 you about the conversation before. 3 A He did not mention him by name. 4 Q When did you get the name Carlton Sherwood? 5 A From Fa ther James Rouch [sic] in July of '80. 6 I think it was the 25th of July. 7 Q And what was the occasion of your 8 conversation with Father Rouch [sic] 9 A I was interviewing him about Father 10 Greeley. 11 Q Where did that interview take place? 12 We will get back to Larsen. We will take a little 13 side trip on Rouch [sic] 14 A It took place in Father Rouch's [sic] office. 15 Q This was after you talked with Larsen? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And Father Rouch [sic] was then -- what was his 18 title? 19 A I don't know what it was at that time. 20 Q But he was -- I should know -- it is not 21 Chancellor? 22 A He didn't have a position like that at that 23 time. At the moment he is a significant figure in 24 the Archdiocese hierarchy, but that was not true at 197 1 that time. 2 Q Where was Father Rouch's [sic] office in July of 3 1980? 4 A Downtown around Superior thereabouts. 5 Q That was at the Archdiocese central 6 headquarters' office, isn't it? 7 A No, it was not there. It was in another 8 building. it was not in the Chancellery Office. 9 Q How big an office compared to this room, 10 room 12D, was it; describe it for me. Your 11 journalist's observation, that are keen and sensitive. 12 Lay it on me. 13 A It was a nice office, kind of bookish. 14 Q Bookish? 15 A That is what I call it. 16 Q Leather furniture? 17 A I don't remember the details of his office. 18 Q How long were you with Father Rouch? [sic] 19 A About an hour. 20 Q Did you show him any of the materials that 21 you had copied or taken and then transcribed from 22 the Greeley archives? 23 A No, sir. 24 Did you discuss the content of any of those 198 1 materials with Father Rouch? [sic] 2 A No, sir. 3 Q Why not? 4 A I didn't want to -- I didn't feel it was 5 appropriate. I didn't think it was necessary with 6 Father Rouch? [sic] 7 Q Because Cardinal Cody was then alive, was 8 he not? 9 A It had nothing to do with it. I just did 10 not feel it necessary to discuss the contents of 11 those papers at that moment with Father Rouch? [sic] 12 It was a judgment on my part. 13 Q Could you give us -- you did discuss with 14 others, as you have described some of that material, 15 Monsignor -- Father Egan, for example, what was the 16 difference between Monsignor Egan on the one hand and 17 Father Rouch? [sic] on the other in making your judgment 18 call not to discuss the papers -- the archive papers 19 with Father Rouch? [sic] 20 A I knew Monsignor Egan much better. 21 Q What did you discuss with Father Rouch? [sic] 22 A we discussed Father Greeley's relationship 23 with Cardinal Cody primarily. 24 Q Would you give us on that primary subject 199 1 of your conversation with Father Rouch [sic] the gist of 2 what you said and what he said? 3 A He did most of the talking obviously since 4 I was asking him questions, and he said that he 5 believed that if Greeley had been given support from 6 that Archbishop - 7 Q Which Archbishop? 8 A Cardinal Cody. He would have been able to 9 function more effectively within the Archdiocese if 10 he had been given support from Cardinal Cody. 11 Q Greeley would be able to function within 12 the Archdiocese? 13 A That's right. We talked about Cody in 14 general on how he handled various personnel decision 15 including -- well, he mentioned Monsignor Egan as 16 somebody who had not been used effectively under 17 Cardinal Cody. 18 I asked him if he included himself as 19 someone who had joined that list recently because he 20 had been fired by Cardinal Cody. 21 Q He was then replaced by a laity 22 organization as I recall it? 23 A No. He was replaced by an individual and 24 they hired a PR person separately, but Father Rouch [sic] 200 I had been replaced as press secretary about a few 2 months before. 3 Q When you asked him that question, whether 4 he fit into that same category of the list of exiles- 5 are you familiar with the term of exiles under Cody? 6 A Not really. I know that some priests had 7 trouble with him. 8 Q And they tended -- didn't you know that 9 priests who had trouble with Cody, or disagreed ended 10 up in Nebraska or Minnesota or Wisconsin or Indiana? 11 A Well, I knew Father Egan had ended up in 12 I knew Father Greeley thought of him, but I also 13 knew Egan did not consider himself an exile, so the 14 term does not have a lot of meaning to me. 15 Q Okay. Anything further on the subject 16 matter of Greeley that you discussed with Father 17 Rouch? [sic] 18 A Not that I can think of. 19 Q Did you transcribe or record this 20 conversation? 21 A I took notes right there. 22 Q Did you write up the notes in a fuller 23 fashion after the discussion was terminated? 24 A Yes. 201 1 Q Did you turn those notes over to your 2 attorneys? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. O'BRIEN: And I note for the record we have 5 not had them as I think we should have had them months 6 ago. 7 Q Back to the lunch with Roy Larsen. Can you 8 think of anything else you discussed with Roy Larsen 9 that involves Greeley in any-way? 10 A No. 11 Q And you did not show Roy Larsen any of the 12 documents from the archives? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Did you reveal the fact to Mr. Larsen on 15 that occasion, July 8, 1980, that you have documents 16 from the archives? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q And could you describe the nature of the 19 things you had, such as tapes, and copies of the Rome 20 Diaries? 21 A I believe so, yes. 22 Q What, if anything, did Mr. Larsen say about 23 that? 24 A Not a thing. 202 1 Q You didn't give any to him? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q Let's stick with the Sun-Times for a while, 4 sir. 5 Did there come a time -- let's put it 6 this way, when following your discussion with Roy 7 Larsen did you next have any contact with anyone at 8 the Sun-Times? 9 A September of 1980. 10 Q And how was the contact initiated? 11 A I called Pamela Zekman. 12 Q And how did you happen to call her? 13 A Sherwood suggested that I call her. 14 Q So prior to this call you had been in touch with Sherwood? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Carlton Sherwood. Well, before we get back 18 to Pam, when did you have the contact with Carlton? 19 A He called me and left a message at my 20 office on August 5, 1980. 21 Q This was the day after you talked to 22 Hesburgh? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And where was he calling from, if you know? 203 1 Chicago. 2 Q And what did he say to you and what did you 3 say to him? 4 A I was not in the office. He left a message 5 with my secretary to call him at this number. 6 Q And you did return the call? 7 A On August 6, 1980. 8 Q And could you give us the substance of 9 the conversation you had with Carlton Sherwood on 10 August 6, 1980? 11 A I called him and he was staying at the. 12 Palmer House. That is where the number was from. 13 He picked up the phone. He said 14 hello. I said, "Mr. Sherwood?" 15 He said, "Yeah." I said, "This is 16 Jim Winters from Notre Dame Magazine." 17 He said, "oh, yeah, do you know who 18 I am?" I said, "I believe our paths have crossed 19 several times." 20 Q But, in fact, you had never talked to him 21 before this date? 22 A our paths had crossed, meaning that we had 23 spoken to the same people. 24 Q But not to each other? 204 1 A No, sir. 2 Q This was your first contact? 3 A This was our first contact. 4 He said, "I have been working a story, 5 as you know, that is related to your story, and I am 6 wondering if -- I have heard about your story, I am 7 wondering if you would ever like to collaborate. I 8 might be willing to do that if you got to a point 9 where you could not publish your story. That has 10 happened with me a few times. Maybe you would like 11 to collaborate with me." 12 Q What did you understand him to be saying 13 or referring to when he said "your story"? 14 A Father Greeley. 15 Q what about him in general or in connection 16 with something other than just his general history? 17 A He didn't specify. 18 Q What did you understand him to be referring 19 to, if anything? 20 A My entire work on Father Greeley. 21 Q Any particular portion of your entire 22 work? 23 A I didn't make any inference at that time. 24 Q What did you say to him? 205 1 A I said, "Yes, now that time has come now. 2 I cannot publish this story here." 3 Q Did you tell him why? 4 A I believe I did. 5 Q What did you tell him as to the "why"? 6 A I told him Hesburgh had tried to suppress 7 the story. 8 Q By this time had you written something up? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q And what further, if anything, did you tell 11 Mr. Sherwood about the, as you put it, effort by 12 Father Hesburgh to suppress the story? 13 A Nothing. 14 Q What did he say? 15 A He said he would like to talk about it and 16 he was willing to come to South Bend to talk about it, 17 and he asked me if South Bend had an airport and I 18 said yes. 19 I said there was a Republic and United 20 flight out of there every day. He said that he would 21 make arrangements to get there the next day and would 22 call me back with details of this arrangement. 23 Q Did you meet with Mr. Sherwood in South 24 Bend? 206 1 A I sure did. 2 Q And between the time of the conversation 3 you just described and the time you met with Mr. 4 Sherwood in South Bend, Indiana, had you had any 5 further conversations with him? 6 A Well, he did call to tell me he would be 7 Out there the next morning at 8:30 on some flight and 8 I was to pick him up. 9 Q Did you pick him up at the airport? 10 A I did, at 8:30. 11 Q And then what happened with respect to your- 12 self and Mr. Sherwood? 13 A We went to the coffee shop at the airport 14 and had coffee and discussed the situation. 15 Q How long did your meeting -- what date was 16 this, sir? 17 A August 7, 1980. 18 Q How long did your meeting with Mr. Sherwood 19 last on August 7, 1980? 20 A The meeting lasted until about 10:00 21 o'clock that night. 22 Q Were you all the time staying and talking 23 at the airport or did you go to other places? 24 A We went to other places. 207 1 Q Where did you go? 2 A We went to my apartment. We went to have 3 lunch. We went back to my apartment. 4 We went to have dinner. We went back 5 to my apartment. And I drove him to Chicago. 6 Q So you were with him a good number of hours, 7 were you not? 8 A I was. 9 Q Now, did you in the course of your time 10 with Carlton Sherwood on August 7, 1980 show him any 11 of the materials copied or taken from the Rosary, 12 archives? 13 A Copied there, you mean? 14 Q Copied there, yeah, let's talk copies. 15 A Yes. 16 Q You showed him. 17 And on August 7th you still had the 18 tapes that you had removed from the archives, did 19 you not? 20 A I did. 21 Q Did you play those tapes for him? 22 A No, not at any length. We didn't have 23 anything to play them on, and he wanted to buy 24 something to play them on, so I went and bought a 208 1 cassette player with his money. 2 Q That very same day? 3 A That very same day and we listened to a 4 very small portion, a couple of words. 5 Q Did he make copies of any of the material 6 that you had available in your apartment? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q That is where you kept the material, wasn't 9 it, in your apartment? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q And what was the substance of your 12 conversation? 13 A Well, we went up to the coffee shop. He 14 and I sat down and ordered coffee, and he said, "What 15 is your story about?" First he said, "This is all 16 between us for the time being. What is this all 17 about?" 18 Q You knew that Carlton Sherwood had gotten 19 a Pulitzer Prize, did you not? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Had he not exposed some order of nun or 22 priest or brothers in the East somewhere? 23 A It was for an investigation he made of 24 the Fathers. 209 1 Q Who were committing some kind of wide 2 scale fraud? 3 A I don't know the details of it. 4 Q But you knew that prior to that meeting? 5 A I did. 6 Well, I told him what had happened 7 essentially, that I had been working on this piece 8 and that I had gotten this permission and that I had 9 gone to these files, and that I had examined these 10 files and I copied these documents, and I told him 11 what the documents had to say. 12 Q We will call it for the purposes of 13 brevity the Plot to Get Cody, okay? 14 A Well -- is Q The Plot to Get a Liberal Pope, whatever. 16 Let's think of something we can shorthand this. 17 A Let's just try to keep it truthful. 18 So I told him all that, and I said, 19 what happened was Greeley had this notion that he 20 should get in there and steer the Papal election, and 21 he called it a conspiracy; realized he didn't have a 22 Cardinal, so he decided to -- these papers revealed 23 that he wanted to show Cody in a public scandal. 24 He said that he wanted an investigative 210 1 reporter to come into Chicago and cause Cody's 2 ouster in a public scandal, the worst kind of public 3 scandal. 4 He said that he was looking for a 5 real tough guy, maybe some son of a bitch from out 6 of town. 7 Sherwood said to me, "That is me." 8 And I said, "Huh?" And he said, "That is me; I am 9 Greeley's hired gun; I am Greeley's investigative 10 reporter." 11 And I said, "You are kidding me.". 12 And he said, "No, I thought you had this all figured 13 out." 14 And then he told me that he had been 15 approached by an editor at Gannett about doing an 16 investigation of Cody, and the editor had said, or he 17 had said, "Greeley doesn't really want to do that." 18 I said, "Well, why don't you just do this, why don't 19 you fly out and talk to this guy about it?" 20 Q Which guy? 21 A Father Greeley. I think he gave him a 22 number or something to contact him in Tucson. 23 And he said that he had flown to Tucson 24 in the last week of March. And I said, "Oh, my God, 211 1 you were out there the same week I was." And he 2 said, "Yeah." And I said, "You got sick." And he 3 said, "Yeah." I said, "He told me you got sick." 4 And he said, "Yeah, I had as soon as I had gotten 5 there, I had to check into a hospital because I had 6 an ulcer attack, but I couldn't get into the hospital 7 because somebody big had died right there." a He said it was that big Olympic star. 9 And I said it was Jessie Owens and he said yeah. 10 Q Okay. And what did this fellow from 11 Gannett Press, Sherwood, tell you about his investi- 12 gation; what was it that he was investigating? 13 A Well, what did he tell me in the course of 14 this day? 15 Q The course of your hours together. 16 A He said he was investigating Cardinal Cody's 17 handling of finances. He said that he was investiga 18 ting his relationship with Helen Wilson. He 19 said Helen Wilson was his mistress. And he said 20 he had been put on all of this by Greeley. 21 Q And is this Mr. Gannett (sic) in your opinion a 22 journalist of high integrity 23 A Mr. Sherwood. 212 1 A He had a Pulitzer Prize, so his reputation 2 was high, yes. 3 Q And did it strike you there was anything 4 wrong about Mr. Sherwood investigating Cardinal Cody' 5 relationship with Mrs. Wilson, or to the other 6 matters he was investigating? 7 A No. 8 Q And these were matters you were not 9 investigating, were you? 10 A No. 11 Q And surely Mr. Sherwood didn't tell you, 12 did he, that Father Greeley was paying him something 13 to do this? 14 A No. 15 Q You knew where Mr. Sherwood got his 16 pay, did you not? 17 A Well, I assumed he got it from - 18 Q And you learned afterwards, did you not, 19 that at about sometime in 1980 the Sun-Times began 20 their investigation of the Cody matter? 21 A I learned that after. 22 Q Sometime after this meeting with Carlton 23 Sherwood? 24 A He actually told me, I believe, that the 213 1 Sun-Times specifically was the paper that was 2 investigating. I had a vague piece of information 3 that one of the Chicago papers had thought about 4 investigating Cardinal Cody. 5 Q He told you this on August 7, 1980? 6 A Yes. 7 Q So the situation then is that we have at 8 least, so far as your information, you have got 9 Carlton Sherwood, Gannett Press investigating the 10 Cardinal? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And you have got the Sun-Times investigating 13 the Cardinal, right? 14 A That's right. 15 Q And you have got Jim Winters with the 16 Greeley papers? 17 A Yes. Jim Winters with the Jim winters' 18 papers. 19 Q So you say. 20 And then did Carlton Sherwood 21 think we may have gotten into this -- he gave you the 22 name of Pamela Zekman, right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And she, too, is a journalist, is she not? 214 1 A She is . 2 Q And her specialty was then and still is, 3 only now on TV, investigative reporting? 4 A It is. 5 Q And, in fact, she was just written up big 6 in one of the papers. 7 Going back to your meeting with 8 Mr. Sherwood, before we leave him, was there anything 9 further about Greeley that you recall? 10 A Sure. 11 Q Let's hear it all. 12 A Well, he took a look at the documents in 13 the afternoon on that day. He said he was shocked by 14 them, and "when I am shocked, it is really something," 15 he said. 16 He said that Greeley had given him a 17 whole laundry list of things to investigate. 18 Q Now, are you telling us that Carlton 19 Sherwood, this Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, 20 was shocked that Father Greeley would be interested 21 in having a liberal Pope elected? 22 A He was shocked by the contents of the 23 documents that I had. 24 Q Did he tell you which particular thing 215 1 shocked him? 2 A He was a little shocked by Father Greeley's 3 characterization of Cardinal Cody as a spic. He 4 said, "He has ethnic slurs and everything else in 5 here." He said that he had respected Father Greeley 6 before he read this, but he no longer did. 7 Q And the word "spic" did not refer to 8 Cardinal Cody? 9 A Cardinal Schriber of Brazil. 10 Q Are you aware, sir, that in "The Making of 11 the Popes 1978,," the Cardinal you just referred to 12 in Brazil was mentioned as one of the top Bishops in 13 the world by Father Greeley? 14 A I was not aware of that. 15 Q So the word "spic" shocked Carlton Sherwood' 16 A The accumulation of the material, including 17 Father Greeley's use of ethnic slurs, shocked Carlton 18 Sherwood by his own statement. 19 Q Did he mention any other ethnic slurs in 20 these? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q He didn't. 23 Anything else that sticks out in 24 respect to that you recall now with respect to your 216 1 conversation with Carlton Sherwood all day practically 2 on August 7, 1980? 3 A He said that Greeley would make a deal 4 With the devil to get rid of Cody. 5 He said that Cody was bad news. We 6 talked about Cody at some length. He said he had 7 stayed at the Westward Hotel or Inn or Tucson when he 8 had been down there, and that is where they had met, 9 and they had met. 10 Q Who had met? 11 A Greeley and Sherwood. 12 Q I thought you were talking about the 13 Cardinal. 14 So Sherwood and Greeley had met in 15 Tucson? 16 A That's right, the week I had been down 17 there, and that was the beginning of Sherwood's 18 investigation of Cardinal Cody. 19 Q That was the first person he contacted? 20 A That was the first person he contacted. 21 Q And did he tell you whether Father Greeley 22 gave him anything of any kind? 23 A Yes. He said, as I have already testified, 24 that he gave him a long laundry list. 217 1 Q I don't mean speeches. I mean did he 2 hand him anything, give him anything, documents? 3 A No. 4 Q Photographs? 5 A No. 6 Q Did he recommend that Carlton Sherwood read 7 his book, "The Making of the Popes 1978"? 8 A If he did, Sherwood didn't mention it. 9 Q Did you ever read the addendum of "The 10 Making of the Popes 1978" on the subject of Cardinal 11 Cody? 12 A I probably did, yes. 13 Q So how did you leave it with Carlton 14 Sherwood? 15 A Sherwood wanted to put our two stories 16 together, as he put it, and he was going to make a 17 proposal to Gannett along these lines; that I would 18 go to work for Gannett, or a Gannett newspaper as a 19 full-time employee, or leave Notre Dame and do that. 20 And when the time came, we would run 21 the two stories together, my story about Greeley, 22 his story about Cody. 23 He thought that was a good way to do 24 it because it showed, first of all, how we were had, 218 1 as he put it, how we got ourselves into this thing, 2 how we were manipulated. He thought it was a press 3 manipulation story. 4 Q who is doing the manipulating? 5 A Father Greeley. 6 Q In what way? 7 A Well, he gave me details, I believe, at 8 our next meeting to that effect. 9 Q Was Father Greeley manipulating the 10 Sun-Times? 11 A According to Sherwood, yes. He said at the 12 next meeting that Greeley was in regular contact with 13 Sherwood. He said he had called him that day as a 14 matter of fact. He said Greeley was coming out to 15 South Bend that day, and he said that he had called 16 his office and there was a message from Greeley which 17 said, "I am in South Bend. Call me." 18 Q This is what he told you on August 7? 19 A That is what he told me on August 7. 20 He said that he had been in contact 21 with Greeley regularly and he was in contact. That 22 Greeley was also in contact with Roy Larsen and the 23 other two reporters on the Sun-Times who were 24 investigating Cody regularly, and as he put it, 219 1 "He is playing us off of each other. He is telling 2 me where the Sun-Times has been. He is telling the 3 Sun-Times where I have been." 4 He said that Greeley thinks that 5 Sherwood is a really smart guy and he feeds that 6 perception by telling him that he already knows thing! 7 that Greeley is constantly telling him about Cody, 8 in other words, he has got that particular piece of 9 the puzzle ahead of Greeley. 10 Q Are you telling me that Sherwood told you 11 that Greeley flatters him by doing the following:. 12 When talking to Sherwood, Greeley assumes Sherwood 13 knows something? 14 A No. 15 Q What is he doing? 16 A He said that. 17 Q Sherwood said -- 18 MR. LANE: It is better in conversations if we 19 don't use pronouns and nouns. 20 MR. O'BRIEN: Q Sherwood said what? 21 A Sherwood said that Greeley is always 22 calling him with information about Cody, leads and 23 things like that. And he says, "Oh, I already knew 24 that already," to make Greeley think that Sherwood 220 1 is as smart as Greeley thinks Sherwood is. 2 That is the gist of that. 3 Q Now, you have Sherwood telling you that 4 Greeley is calling him, Sherwood, from South Bend? 5 A "I am in South Bend. Call me." 6 That was the message that Sherwood 7 said that Greeley had left at his office. 8 Q And we are talking about August 7, 1980? 9 A That's right. 10 Q At that office, again, that Greeley is in 11 South Bend? 12 A Greeley left the message, "I am in South 13 Bend." 14 Q What did Sherwood tell you he was going to 15 do in connection with Greeley? 16 A He did not tell me anything about it. 17 Q When Sherwood left, isn't it a fact then, 18 sir, that as far as you were concerned Sherwood was 19 going to approach and seek to get you a job with the 20 Gannett Press, at least for the purpose of this 21 ongoing investigation? 22 A No, it was a full-time job. 23 Q Full-time job? 24 A Yes, that was his proposal. 221 1 Q Who brought the subject up first, you, or 2 Sherwood? 3 A He did. 4 Q And it was a permanent job? 5 A &nb