James Winters vs. Andrew Greeley: James Winters' Deposition

Winters Deposition, pp. 261-290

1       STATE OF ILLINOIS       )
                                )       SS:
2       COUNTY OF COOK          )

3       IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY
        COUNTY DEPARTMENT       LAW DIVISION
4
        JAMES WINTERS,                          )
5                                               )
                Plaintiff,                      )
6                                               )
        VS.                                     )       No. 82 L 14410
7                                               )
        ANDREW GREELEY,                         )
8                                               )
                Defendant.                      ) 
9

10              The discovery deposition of JAMES WINTERS, 

11      taken under oath on the 2nd day of July, 1985, in 

12      Room 1200, at 111 West Jackson Boulevard, Chicago,

13      Illinois, pursuant to the Rules of the Supreme 

14      Court of Illinois and the Illinois Code of Civil 

15      Procedure, before Linda McMahon, a notary public 

16      in and for the County of Cook and State of Illinois,

17      pursuant to notice.

        APPEARANCES:
18
                WILLIAM D. MADDUX & ASSOCIATES, by
19                      MR. BRUCE M. LANE,
                                for the plaintiff,
20
                MAYER, BROWN & PLATT, by
21                      MR. PATRICK W. O'BRIEN and
                        MS. HOPE G. NIGHTINGALE,.
22                              for the Defendant.

23

24
                       Sullivan Reporting Company
                      Chicago, Illinois   782-4705

PART 9: PP. 261-290

1        was mine;       that Greeley had no claim on the material.
2               Q       Did you tell him the basis for that?
3               A       He didn't question it. He also told me that
4       if Greeley sued me, the University would defend me.
5               Q       Did you tell Father Hesburgh that you had,
6       without signing a receipt, without in any way
7       discussing with anybody, removed ten tapes of
8       Greeley -- dictated by Greeley from the library at
9       Rosary College?
10              A       No, sir.
11              Q       Why not?
12              A       Didn't occur to me to tell him that.
13              Q       At that point you had not either
14      transcribed or copied these tapes, had you?
15              A       No, sir.
16              Q       And you did not think your possession as
17      of August 4th, while talking with Father Hesburgh of
18      ten tapes dictated by Father Greeley was relevant to
19      the discussion?
20              A       No, sir.
21              Q       And what was the final -- as the meeting
22      had come to an end had you communicated in any way
23      your decision to either acquiesce or not the
24      request you previously described by Father Hesburgh
                                        261

1       to you to send the stuff back?
2               A       I told him I understood his decision, but
3       that I did not agree with it. I told him that I
4       thought he was trying to put his position in a
5       higher moral plane than mine, and I didn't think it
6       necessarily belonged there.
7                               I asked him if he knew what this
8       meant to me personally. He said that he did and
9       he said that he liked my work and so forth.
10                              I asked him for a week to think about
11      it. I said, "Can I have some time to think about it?"
12      And he said, "Sure, as much time as you want."
13                              I said, "Can I have a week?" And
14      he said, "Sure." That is where we left it pretty
15      much.
16                              We made some small talk after that.
17      He said he was having dinner with Greeley that night
18      and so forth.
19              Q       All right. Sir, now on the subject of the
20      return of the material, you had a week to think it
21      over?
22              A       Yes, sir.
23              Q       And I believe you testified that with
24      respect to the documents that were copied at some
                                                262

1       point in the week you decided to copy the copies?
2               A       No, air. They were being copied while I
3       was in Father Hesburgh's office.
4               Q       Did you tell Father Hesburgh that?
5               A       No, sir.
6               Q       Where were they being copied?
7               A       In the copy center at Notre Dame.
8               Q       So, when that process was done, you ended
9       up with two sets?
10              A       I did.
11              Q       We will call them Set I that you had made
12      copies of originally at Rosary, and Set 2 being the
13      copies of the copies made at Notre Dame.
14              A       We      can call them the Rosary Set and Notre
15      Dame.
16              Q       The Rosary Set and the Notre Dame.
17                      Did     you communicate at any time of a
18      decision to send the Rosary Set back to Rosary?
19              A       The next day.
20              MR. LANE: Just a second. So we are clear,
21      communicated with whom?
22              MR. O'BRIEN: Q Anybody at all.
23              A       Okay.   I will call this whatever I want
24      to call it.
                                         263

1                               The next day I talked to Dick Conklin.
2       He asked to see me in his office at 11:00 a.m.
3       He was the Director of Information Services at
4       Notre Dame.
5               Q       This is August 5?
6               A       August 5, 1980. And he asked me, "What is
7       the status of the Greeley papers?" And I said, "Father
8       Hesburgh gave me a week to think about it."
9                               And he said, "I wouldn't be cute about
10      that. He has told a lot of people that they are
11      going back this afternoon. You have got to send them
12      back."
13      I said, "Okay, I will send them back."
14              Q       To Conklin?
15              A       No, not to Conklin.
16              Q       I mean you said that to Conklin?
17              A       I said that to Conklin.
18              Q       And you described him as a biggie in Public
19      Affairs for the Notre Dame University?
20              A       He is the Director of Information Services.
21              Q       And it was a safe assumption, sir, was it
22      not,    that    Conklin would report the conversation that
23      you had with Conklin to Father Hesburgh?
24              A       That was a safe assumption.
                                         264

1               Q       What did you say about the tapes to
2       Conklin?
3               A       Nothing.
4               Q       Okay. And there came a time, sir, when you
5       send    the copies that you had made of the Rosary -
6       the Rosary copies back to Rosary College?
7               A       I sent them to Sister Camille Lund because
8       Conklin had sent me a memo to the effect that is who
9       they    should go to. I had my secretary send them.
10              Q       There is a document that has been produced
11 in this case, I believe by your attorney, sir,
12 numbered in our office as 0916, and I show you
13 let's mark it as Exhibit No. 4.
14                              (Whereupon, Winters'
15                              Exhibit No. 4 was marked
16                              for identification as of
17                              this date.)
18              MR. O'BRIEN: Q I show you a document previously
19      marked Winters' No. 4, sir, and it appears to be the
20      title sheet of a package I suggest to you and ask you,
21      sir, if that is the label on material that you sent
22      to Sister Camille Lund from Notre Dame on or about
23      August -- it looks like 9, 1980?
24              A       Yes.
                                         265

1               Q       Now, what did you send back; that was the
2       documents, right, the Greeley copies?
3               A       This was the tapes.
4               Q       This was the tapes?
5               A       That's right.
6               Q       Did you send separately the materials, the
7       copies that you made originally at the Xerox
8       machine?
9               A       The other machine, yeah, I did.
10              Q       So by August 9 you had returned the tapes
11      and returned the copies you had made at Rosary to
12      Rosary?
13              A       That's right.
14              Q       However, you returned what you just said -
15      you returned -- and I believe you did -- you made
16      copies of the documents and made some sort of
17      transcription of the tapes, or copied them onto
18      another tape, which or both?
19              A       I made copies of the copies of the documents
20      made and I transcribed portions of the tapes.
21              Q       But you listened to all of them?
22              A       I listened to most of them.
23                              I gave some examination of all of
24      them, but some clearly were not worth listening
                                        266

1       entirely to.
2               Q In connection with the return of the
3       materials, sir, did you have any discussions with
4       Sister Lund?
5               A No, sir.
6               Q Did you have in connection with the return
7       any discussions with anybody connected with Rosary
8       College?
9               A No, sir.
10              Q I think you mentioned it, but you were told
11      by somebody to take the return of the material to
12      Sister Lund?
13              A       By Mr. Conklin. I wasn't told. I was
14      informed through a memo.
15              Q       A memo from Mr. Conklin to you?
16              A       That's right.
17              Q       On the subject matter of returning of the
18      Greeley materials in essence?
19              A       It said, "Send the material to Sister
20      Lund," and gave her address.
21              Q       And this was after you had the conversation
22      that you described with Mr. Conklin?
23              A       That's right.
24              Q       How long a memo was this?
                                         267

1               A       Very brief.
2               Q       was there a copy of it indicated to
3       Father Hesburgh?
4               A       Not to my recollection.
5               Q       During at least -- did you ever have any
6 further conversations with Father Hesburgh on the
7 subject matter of the Greeley material ever?
8               A       No, sir.
9               Q       At any time in your whole life up to the
10      present moment?
11              A       Never up to the present moment.
12              Q       All right. Same question with respect to
13      Mr. Parent.
14              A       About the material?
15              Q       The material, in any way involving the
16      materials that came out of Rosary College.
17              A       Well, we had discussions relating to the
is      subject matter within the materials and things like
19      that.
20              Q       Was this in connection with business, or
21      just casual, because I admit the stuff is sort of
22      interesting, but was it just coffee talk, or meeting
23      talk, or business talk, professional talk, or what
24      kind of talk?
                                         268

1               A       It was professional talk.
2               Q       In connection with what?
3               A       With various aspects related to the
4       papers,, yes.
5               Q       Did you discuss with Mr. Parent the
6       article that you wrote a draft of?
7               A       Yes.
8               Q       Did you show Exhibit No. 3 or any portion
9       thereof to Mr. Parent?
10              A       No.
11              Q       Did you discuss the fact that you were doing--
12      working on Exhibit No. 3?
13              A       Yes.
14              Q       And what did you tell Mr. Parent what plans
15      you had for the article that you were working on
16      Exhibit 3, a draft?
17              A       I didn't start working on it until 1981.
18      I told Ron on August 5. 1980 that I intended to keep
19      copies of the material and that I thought the story
20      should be told, and that I thought further that I
21      could not stay at Notre Dame and tell it. I didn't
22      think Notre Dame was the place to launch it under
23      the circumstances.
24              Q       Is Parent dead?
                                        269

1               A       Yes.
2               Q       When did Parent die?
3               A       August 21, 1982.
4                               Anyway, I told him that -- I told him
5       that in general terms I wanted the story to be
6       published; that that would require me to leave the
7       Magazine in advance of the publication, and that
8       I had retained copies of the material.
9               Q       Did you tell at any time Mr. Parent that
10      you were asked to return the material by Father
11      Hesburgh and that you told Mr. Conklin that you had,
12      indeed, or were going to, indeed, return the material?
13              A       Yes, sir.
14              Q       And what did Parent say to that?
15              A       He said it was okay with him.
16              Q       So you did not start on the article,
17      Exhibit 3, which is a summary of it, and a draft,
18      until August of 1981?
19              A       The summary and draft are two different
20      things. A distinction has to be made between them
21      if we are going to proceed with any clarity.
22              Q       Pages 04 through 08 of Winters No. 3 are
23      the summary?
24      A       That's right.
                                        270

1               Q       And the draft article itself begins on
2       page 09 and continues to the page numbered in the
3       lower right-hand corner of 118, is that correct, sir?
4               A       That ' s correct.
5               Q       Now, when did you prepare the draft
6       portion described of Winters' No. 3?
7               A       They are both drafts.
a               Q       Excuse me, the summary draft, pages 05
9       through 08.
10              A       Okay. The summary I prepared in August of
11      1980.
12              Q       August 1980?
13              A       That's right.
14              Q       Whom did you show that to, if anyone?
15              A       Mr. Sherwood. Well, initially I prepared
16      it for Mr. Sherwood. He asked that that be prepared.
17      for him.
18              Q       And did you discuss pages 05 through 08 of
19      Exhibit 3, the draft summary, with Mr. Sherwood?
20              A       I did.
21              Q       Did you send him a copy of it?
22              A       No, he was in my apartment and he read it
23      there.
24              Q       And when was he -- what approximate date
                                        271

1       was he in your apartment?
2               A       That would have been in August Of 1980, and
3       the date would have been around the 12th, or the
4       13th, or the 14th, in that range.
5               Q       And had you -- and this was your first
6       meeting with Mr. Sherwood since August 7, the meeting
7       You described earlier?
8               A       Actually the August 7 meeting was the
9       first.  Let me get this right.
10                              The second meeting I believe was on
11      the 12th, of August and the third meeting was on the
12      14th, of August.  I believe that the summary was
13      requested by Mr. Sherwood on the 12th, and shown to
14      him on the 14th,
15              Q       All right. We will get back to Mr.
16      Sherwood.
17                              I have got to go back, sir, to
18      Father Hesburgh with some reluctance, but I must.
19                              In your answers to interrogatories
20      you said you received a letter dated 8/6/80 from
21      Father Hesburgh?
22              A       That's right.
23              Q       What did that letter say because we don't
24      have a copy of it?
                                    272

1               A       He said, "I want to thank you for your
2       magnificence in perfecting a solution to the Greeley
3       situation.* It was essentially a thank-you letter.
4               Q       This was dated after your conversation
5       with Conklin?
6               A       That's right, August 6, it was dated.
7       I received it on a Friday.
8               Q       So that was proof to you, was it not, that
9       Conklin had reported to Father Hesburgh your decision
10      as you have described it?
11              A       It was proof that somebody had.
12              Q       Okay. And that was all the letter said,
13      just that?
14              A       Well, he went on to talk about this piece
15      I had  had asked him to do on Southeast Asia. No, it was
16      immigration policy. I asked to do a piece on
17      immigration policy. He said that now was not the
18      time.
19              Q       Anything else that-you recall?
20              A       No, not that I recall.
21                              It was a two or three-paragraph letter.
22      He said he at no time intended to question the
23      purpose of my-vocation in journalism.
24                              He had said at the meeting that he knew
                                            273

1       done nothing wrong and that I had violated
2       nothing. He said that at the meeting on August 4.
3       He didn't tell me I was wrong in any way. He
4       acknowledged that I was right.
5               Q       But, of course, you had not told him about
6       your appropriating the tapes, had you?
7               A       I had not.
8               Q       And you had not told him, and you never
9       did tell him, did you, that you just pretended to
10      return the Greeley materials because you copied them?
11              MR. LANE:       I object to that characterization.
12              MR. O'BRIEN: Strike the word prepared.
13              Q       You did not tell him that even while you
14      were meeting and that even while you were receiving
15      correspondence from him that you had retained a copy
16      of all  the documents you had previously copied; you
17      never did tell him that, did you?
18              A       Personally, no.
19              Q       Any way at all. Write him a letter?
20              A       I never told him as a person.
21              Q       Are you suggesting that someone told him?
22              A       Yes, sir.
23              Q       Who told him?
24              A       The New York Times.
                                            274

1               Q       1981?
2               A       1981, September 21, 1981.
3               Q       And you are referring to an article in the
4       New York Times?
5               A       Well, that is the first I know that
6       Father Hesburgh knew that. He may have learned it
7       earlier.        I don't know.
8               Q       Mr. winters, I show you a pile of documents.
9       The first       page of this file is numbered by our
10      office, 119 and it goes through 785. The first page
11      is the original first draft, "Pope Book Greeley
12      Archives, Pope, Page 1," in the upper left-hand
13      corner, and I state for the record that this material
14      is best as we can keep it in the same order that it
15      was produced to us by your attorneys, that we put
16      our paging numbering machine on it, and put a
17      rubber band around it, and I have marked it as
18      Winters' Deposition No. 5, sir, and I ask you if
19      Winters' No. 5 does not consist of copies that you
20      made of documents from the Greeley archives at
21      Rosary College, and if you want to take your time on
22      that, go ahead.
23              A       Actually there is a distinction to be made.
24      These are copies of the transcript that I made myself
                                            275

1       of the ‘78 tapes.
2               MS. NIGHTINGALE: Could you identify those by
3       stamp number?
4               THE WITNESS: 0119 through 0154.
5               MR. O'BRIEN: Q Those are transcripts you made
6       of certain portions of the ten tapes that you removed
7       from    the Rosary College, is that correct, sir?
8               A       Yes, it is. These are copies of the
9       material which I made at Rosary College.
10              Q       Would you read the numbers into the record,
11      sir?
12              A       Sure. 0155 through 0785.
13              Q       Are these copies of the materials that you
14      made copies of in the first instance at Rosary
15      College?
16              A       They are copies of the material which I
17      accumulated and copied at Rosary College.
18              Q       All right. Now, sir, you referred to the
19      New York Times, September 21, 1981 article in
20      connection with Father Hesburgh?
21              A       Yes.
22              Q       And I have that in f ront of me, sir, and
23      I show you a copy of it.
24      Are you acquainted personally with
                                            276

1       whether Father Hesburgh read the New York Times on
2       September 21, 1981?
3               A       No, sir.
4               Q       Have you reviewed that article recently?
5               A       No, sir.
6               Q       I believe this article was an exhibit at
7       the Greeley Deposition.
8                               In any event, whatever Father
9       Hesburgh did learn -- the article in question was
10      marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7A at the
11      deposition of Greeley.
12                              I show it to you, sir, and he
13      identified it, and I don't see any reference.
14              A       I didn't say there was one
15              Q       All right. Tell us again then how the
16      September 21, 1981 story in the New York Times bears
17      upon Father Hesburgh's knowledge of the fact that
18      you made copies of the stuff you returned before
19      you returned it?
20              A       I have no personal knowledge of how
21      Father Hesburgh learned that. I do know that in the
22      aftermath of the publication of that story he
23      discussed this event with Dick Conklin. Dick
24      Conklin told me on September 22, 1981 that
                                            277

1       Father Hesburgh's response was, "We are not going
2       to do anything about it."
3               Q       Sir, now, prior to September 21, 1981, and
4       dealing with the whole time frame with respect to
5       Your involvement with Andrew Greeley starting in
6       1980 and the visit to Tucson in March of 1980, at
7       any time, sir, did anyone at all threaten you with
8       loss of your job or demotion in connection with your
9       job on the Notre Dame Magazine in connection with the
10      affair that we have been discussing?
11              A       Yes, sir.
12              Q       Who did?
13              A       In January of 1981, January 7, 1981, Ron
14      Parent told me in his office that Dick Conklin had
15      been in before Christmas for a CASE Conference.
16              Q       What does that mean?
17              A       CASE is the Council for the Advancement
18      and Support of Education.
19                                      During that trip, Conklin had discussed
20      me with Roy Larsen over lunch, and it had gotten from
21      Larsen some account of my activities relating to
22      the events leading up to this lawsuit.
23              Q       What did Conklin say to you?
24              A       Conklin said nothing to me. I was talking
                                            278

1       to Parent.
2               Q       I'm sorry. Conklin had been in Chicago and
3       Parent told you that Conklin apparently talked to him,
4       Parent, is that correct?
5               A       About his visit to Chicago.
6               Q       I just wrote down Conklin had been in
7       Chicago, is that accurate?
8               A       You want me to try it again?
9               Q       Yes.
10              A       I was discussing it with Parent. Parent
11      asked to see me in his office so I went to see him in
12      his office.     This is January 7, 1981.
13              Parent told me that Dick Conklin had
14      been in Chicago before Christmas for a CASE
15      Conference.     You already know what CASE is.
16                              In the course of that trip to
17      Chicago he, meaning Conklin, had discussed me with
18      Roy Larsen at lunch.
19                              And from that had learned of my
20      activities related to the events leading up to this
21      lawsuit.
22              Q       This is Parent talking?
23              A       Parent is talking about Conklin.
24              Q       Right. Now, what activities did he refer
                                            279

1       to, what specific activities?
2               A       For one thing the fact that I had kept a
3       set of copies.
4               Q       What other things?
5               A       The fact that I had been to the Sun-Times
6       with    them    and the Tribune with them.
7               Q       In the fall of 180?
8               A       That's correct. And the fact that I had
9       applied for jobs at both of those places.
10                              As a result of that knowledge, Conklin
11      had set up a meeting between himself, Dr. James W.
12      Frick, and Ron Parent.
13              That was to take place at 9:30 a.m.,
14      January 8,1981.
15              So      that was where it was left there.
16              Q       What did you say about your activities?
17              A       Parent knew everything.         I didn't have to
18      tell Parent anything. Parent knew what had been
19      happening. Conklin did not. I don't report to
20      Conklin.
21              Q       You had reported to Parent your trips in
22      the fall of 1980 to talk to the Tribune and the
23      Sun-Times?
24              A       I had
                                            280

1               Q       With your copies of the stuff?
2               A       I had.
3               Q       And Parent said, you know, okay?
4               A       He did.
5               Q       So Conklin gets into the act?
6               A       Yeah.
7               Q       And he is apparently disturbed?
8               A       Conklin was disturbed about it.
9               Q       What did Conklin think was wrong with what
10      he did?
11              A       I don't know what he thought. I don't see
12      anything wrong with what I did.
13              Q       How did you view this? This is all in
14      response to the question, whether there were threats
15      that occurred.
16              A       Yes.
17              Q       In any event, when the heavies are meeting,
18      and want to meet with you, you viewed that as of
19      January 7 in the course of your discussion with
20      Parent -- as I probably would have -- as some kind of
21      a possible threat to your position?
22              A       It looked that way, yes.
23                              The next day they met. This was
24      January 8, 1981. They met at 9:30.Ron Parent came
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1       up at the end of that meeting and I asked him to tell
2       me what had ensued.
3               He said that Dr. Frick wanted to see
4       me at 11:00 a.m., and that he didn't want to tell a
5       what Dr. Frick was going to say because he wanted me
6       to enter the meeting with an open mind. I said,
7       "I would rather hear what was going to happen."
8               He said that Conklin had given a
9       rendition of my activities that was  very damaging
10      and he described his defense, which was fairly
11      ineffectual.
12              Q       Parent talking?
13              A       Yes. He didn't say it was ineffectual, but
14      he described it. Basically, he lied. He said that
15      I never intended to write an article anywhere about
16      him, and as a result of that meeting Dr. Frick had
17      decided that I  would be terminated at the University
18      as of April 1,  1981, and that was the gist of what
19      I was going to  be told that morning at 11:00 a.m.
20              Q       That is as much as Parent told you about
21      the meeting?
22              A       No. He told me that he always thought
23      that no one should be fired from the first job if
24      they didn't do the job right, and I said I had done
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1       my best.
2               Q       Then did you have your meeting with
3       Mr. Frick?
4               A       Dr. Frick.
5               Q       Dr. Frick.
6               A       I did.
7               Q       Tell me his position then.
8               A       He is the -- he was the Vice President for
9       Public Relations Alumni Affairs and Development, which
10      meant that in the chain of command I reported to
11      Parent and Parent reported to Frick, so I was under
12      Dr. Frick.
13                              Well, I went to see Dr. Frick at
14      11:00 a.m. that morning.
15              Q       Was anyone else present --
16              A       No.
17              Q       -- in Dr. Frick's office?
18              A       In his office?
19              Q       Drums rolling?
20              A       Didn't look good.
21              Q       How long did the meeting last?
22              A       About an hour.
23              Q       Would you give us the substance of what
24      you said and what Dr. Frick said?
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1               A       He said, "What is this all about?"
2       And I said, "I don't know." And he said,"I think
3       you do know what it is all about." And he said
4       that he had three things he wanted to ask me, three
5       areas he wanted to explore.
6                               He said, "One was the spirit of the
7       conversations you had with Father Hesburgh which led
8       me to believe, although I was not involved
9       personally,  as you know, I was on vacation through
10      this time, that no copies had been kept."
11                              He said, too," I wonder what good would
12      accrue from keeping copies."
13                              There was a third, which I will have
14      to try to bring back, but I remember there were three,
is      and those were the two.
16                              I said to him -- so he said, "It
17      hurts me to think that we have been misled in some
18      way." And I said in response, I told Father
19      Hesburgh in that meeting," Father, you are asking me
20      to do a violation, something that would be a
21      violation of myself as a journalist." That was the
22      spirit of those conversations.
23                              I said, "Two, I was not interested in
24      being a party to a suppression of the story, and I
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1       in any event would have kept copies if only to
2       protect myself under these circumstances."
3                               He said, "How would the copies protect
4       you?" I said,   "They would show that I had gone into
5       those files for exactly the purpose that I said, which
6       was to research a full profile of Greeley."
7                               And he said to me, "Well, it has been
8       my understanding of Greeley that he makes a lot of
9       threats and stuff, but he doesn't really follow
10      through on them much."
11                              And I said, "He is with toppling
12      of the Cardinal, Archbishop of Chicago in a public
13      scandal. That is one threat he has followed through
14      on."
15                              He asked me some more questions.
16      Finally I said to him, "I didn't do anything
17      dishonorable last year I didn't lie to anybody.
18      It may not have been as clean as I might have wanted,
19      but I found that not much in life is."
20      And he stopped for a minute and he
21      said, "If you were Jim Frick, would you do anything
22      about this?"
23                              And I said, "No."
24                              And then he talked for a while about
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1       the first time that he had encountered what he
2       called evil in the world and he said it was when he
3       first started at Notre Dame and it had something to
4       do with a priest and he had gone to Father Cavenaugh,
5       who was the President at the time and he said, "I
6       cannot handle this; I cannot work here anymore."
7       And Father Cavenaugh said to him, "The priesthood
8       is just like everybody else. You will meet good
9       ones and bad ones."
10                              And then he told me, "I am not going
11      to do anything about this."     He said, "If you think
12      this is a story that should be told, then I think you
13      should find a publication that will let you tell the
14      story fully and credibly and that will protect your
15      legal rights and so forth."
16                              He asked me, "Do you want to stay at
17      Notre Dame much longer?"
18                              And I said yes.
19              MR. LANE: Let's take a break.
20                                      (Whereupon, a brief
21                                      recess was taken.)
22              MR. O'BRIEN: Q Sir, we are back to good Dr.
23      Frick.  Did you complete your answer, sir?
24              A       Yes. I recall now the third thing he
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1       asked me in the original three things that he
2       asked me.
3                               He said that he had heard that I had
4       used the papers and used the story as a wedge for
5       employment. I told him that I had applied at several
6       places and that I had talked about the story to
7       several places.
8                               And he said, "I question the sincerity
9       of someone that says they want to publish a story
10      if they want to use it to get a job."
11                              And I said, "I wanted to publish the
12      story. I did not want to become a martyr to it."
13                              He asked me how the situation had
14      affected my relationship with the Magazine and the
15      University. I said that at first I felt bad about
16      it because I-thought the Magazine could do anything
17      and this was an indication that we couldn't do this,
18      but that I had gotten over that. And he asked me,
19      "Do you make a distinction between the Magazine and
20      the University?" And I said, "No, I think the
21      Magazine reflects the University."
22                              And he asked me what I thought of the
23      University. I said that I had been there as a
24      student for three years and as a staff person for
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1       three years, and that they treated me well and
2       that I loved Notre Dame.
3                               He said to me, "I am not going to
4       do anything about this." He said, "I don't
5       question your integrity. I do question your
6       judgment, but we all make mistakes. I made three
7       or four mistakes and my wife tells me about all of
8       them."
9                               We got up to leave.     I told him, "I
10      had met only two honest men in this whole thing, and
11      I think I just met a third."
12                              That was the end of the meeting.
13              Q       Now, this was January of 1981, sir?
14              A       January 8, 1981.
15              Q       What was your position at Notre Dame
16      Magazine at the time?
17              A       Managing Editor.
18              Q       And you are still the Managing Editor, are
19      you not?
20              A       I am.
21              Q       Have you received any increases in pay since
22      January of 1981?
23              A       Yes.
24              Q       Have you heard anything more about the
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1       subject from any of the people above you in the
2       Notre Dame administration since then?
3               A       I sure have.
4               Q       We will get to that.
5                               Did you hear anything about it further
6       during the period forward from January 8, 1981 until
7       roughly September 1982?
a               A       Yes.
9               Q       When was the next time you heard something
10      about this matter that you had discussed with
11      Dr. Frick from anyone at the administration of
12      Notre Dame, or the Notre Dame Magazine?
13              A       On September 21, 1981, the New York Times
14      published the story.
15              Q       So you had heard nothing further about the
16      affair from January 8, 1981, to September 21 or 22,
17      1981?
18              A       Well, Dick Conklin did talk to me after I
19      talked to Dr. Frick.
20              Q       Let's get that on the record.
21              A       That was in the immediate aftermath of my
22      meeting with Dr. Frick, and by  the immediate
23      aftermath, I mean the afternoon of that meeting.
24      So it was January 8.He told me that
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1       he had not been out to get me; that he had learned
2       this stuff from Larsen more or less. I said --
3       well, he didn't say it was from Larsen. I had to get
4       that out of him.
5                               I asked him who it was and I had a
6       right to know that and Dr. Frick agreed that I had
7       the right to know that early at the meeting and I
8       said, "Was it Larsen?" He said, "Yeah." And that
9       is all I recall at that meeting.
10                              There was more to it, but it was not
11      a terribly long meeting.
12                              The next time I heard anything about
13      it from a higher-up other than Ron Parent was
14      September 21, 1981.
15              Q       What happened then?
16              A       Well, the Times published a story, and at
17      a regular meeting of the division department heads;
18      that is, the division that I worked for, it is now
19      called University Relations, at a regular meeting this
20      topic was discussed I learned from Ron Parent.
21              Q       You were not at the meeting?
22              A       I was not.
23                              Ron came up to me after the meeting and
24      he said that they had discussed this article at the
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Electronic edition copyright © 1998 Ingrid H. Shafer

Posted 25 August 1998